CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

General discussion about CBCS.
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Re: CBCS talk

Postby MR-SigS » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:38 pm

DrWatson wrote:
InvstmntComcSupplies wrote:
DrWatson wrote:Is there any concrete proof microchamber paper is needed? Well, how about proof that it is not needed? That would be every book that currently has white pages that has not been stored with even a shred of microchamber paper since the day it was printed.


No, that just proves that the existing acid in the book has not yet damaged the paper by darkening.

It does not prove that microchamber would NOT slow the inevitable acid accumulation in the book and its eventual darkening. Because that is exactly what microchamber paper does and there is ample scientific evidence to prove it.

Well, I guess the acids in the paper of that white paged Action #1 9.0 must really be late bloomers...


Exactly what I was thinking. That was the best example of proper storage I've ever seen :cloud9:



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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby InvstmntComcSupplies » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:52 pm

Prophet_DNA wrote:
A link to this study would be great if you have one? I wasn't aware that the Library of Congress did research to show gases are actually trapped inside these slabs while they aged. I would assume that because they are not air tight this was impossiable but I could be wrong...


You are thinking of this the wrong way. You are thinking of gases that evaporate into the atmosphere like Helium or Hydrogen. Byproducts of paper deterioration are strongly attracted to paper. It is why the reaction is auto catalytic. It feeds on itself. Also not all of the chemistry is gaseous in nature.

The LOC did studies on Mylar, which is used to store a vast amount of their collection. It was pretty much a given that acidic papers encapsulated in mylar would deteriorate more rapidly than not, after the debacle of cellulose acetate lamination. The study simply proved that the mylar didn't need to be sealed to have the same effect and that an alkaline reserve slowed the deterioration process considerably.

Fantastic Four and I (when my screen name was grinin) had discussions about the study on a couple occasions, usually when talking about open vs. closed top mylars. He kept forgetting the part in the study about the open mylars causing just as much damage as the closed. I linked to it on the CGC forums, but I think the last time we had the conversation a couple years ago, the link was dead. The new "improved" LOC website is designed more for public use with zero scientific info. The study had been referenced by FFB and several others on the CGC boards. It also represents the standard adhered to by all conservators using mylar.

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby Prophet_DNA » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:21 pm

InvstmntComcSupplies wrote:
Prophet_DNA wrote:
A link to this study would be great if you have one? I wasn't aware that the Library of Congress did research to show gases are actually trapped inside these slabs while they aged. I would assume that because they are not air tight this was impossiable but I could be wrong...


You are thinking of this the wrong way. You are thinking of gases that evaporate into the atmosphere like Helium or Hydrogen. Byproducts of paper deterioration are strongly attracted to paper. It is why the reaction is auto catalytic. It feeds on itself. Also not all of the chemistry is gaseous in nature.

The LOC did studies on Mylar, which is used to store a vast amount of their collection. It was pretty much a given that acidic papers encapsulated in mylar would deteriorate more rapidly than not, after the debacle of cellulose acetate lamination. The study simply proved that the mylar didn't need to be sealed to have the same effect and that an alkaline reserve slowed the deterioration process considerably.

Fantastic Four and I (when my screen name was grinin) had discussions about the study on a couple occasions, usually when talking about open vs. closed top mylars. He kept forgetting the part in the study about the open mylars causing just as much damage as the closed. I linked to it on the CGC forums, but I think the last time we had the conversation a couple years ago, the link was dead. The new "improved" LOC website is designed more for public use with zero scientific info. The study had been referenced by FFB and several others on the CGC boards. It also represents the standard adhered to by all conservators using mylar.


Wait... wait... wait... so when I read people saying off gasing it actually is not a gas in the atmosphere? I think I need to really understand what happens to a comic when it ages...
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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby Stu_Pidman » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:58 am

InvstmntComcSupplies wrote:
Prophet_DNA wrote:
A link to this study would be great if you have one? I wasn't aware that the Library of Congress did research to show gases are actually trapped inside these slabs while they aged. I would assume that because they are not air tight this was impossiable but I could be wrong...


You are thinking of this the wrong way. You are thinking of gases that evaporate into the atmosphere like Helium or Hydrogen. Byproducts of paper deterioration are strongly attracted to paper. It is why the reaction is auto catalytic. It feeds on itself. Also not all of the chemistry is gaseous in nature.

The LOC did studies on Mylar, which is used to store a vast amount of their collection. It was pretty much a given that acidic papers encapsulated in mylar would deteriorate more rapidly than not, after the debacle of cellulose acetate lamination.


"the debacle of cellulose acetate lamination." Please tell me you're talking about the Q Collection :lol:

http://q-comics.com/
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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby IronMan » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:26 am

InvstmntComcSupplies wrote:
IronMan wrote:The only thing I'm getting for sure out of the first set of tests is if you store your comic books in an oven - or oven like conditions - microchamber paper will help. The summary stresses controlling the environment as the best and most important thing thing that can be done.


Elevated temperatures are used to simulate aging of paper. Most studies don't want to wait around for 30 years.

Controlling environment is almost always recommended in all studies since lack of environmental controls can damage the entire collection. Does this mean that with environmental controls, paper magically stops aging? Of course not, especially paper which is already acidic (every newsprint comic ever made). However, none of us control the environment in our homes to the extent recommended for long term paper storage.


Thought I'd stay out of this for a while. Lots of interesting comments. Now I'm back. :flowery:

Accelerated aging of paper is itself a controversial subject, with a great deal of uncertainties and no small number of highly educated expert critics. The question is essentially "do accelerated tests at all indicate the permanence of paper?" A lot of experts say no, it does not.

"....In a more recent work, Bansa expresses further frustration with accelerated aging
techniques (Bansa, 1992). With the aid of extensive accelerated aging data, he has
attempted vainly to find reproducible degradation patterns with different papers. He is
convinced that accelerated aging experiments can lead to conclusions that may not only
be doubtful, but can even be “deceitful.” He points to several findings from his data that
perplex him: These include the lack of any predictability in the observed decay patterns
(some are curved upwards, others downwards, while some remain flat), the unexplained
stability of a paper sample with a pH of about 5, and also the stability exhibited by
alkaline groundwood papers."


another quote:
"...accelerated aging methods which facilitate the volatilization
of degradation products by exposing single sheets to a constant current of air and
moisture may be missing an important element of the manner in which paper ages within
a mass of paper that is bound into a book, or housed in a closed container. When we open
an old book, we would be surprised if it did not have a characteristic smell. Yet the
accelerated aging methods we have practiced thus far never develop a noticeable odor.
Our accelerated aging methods have been missing an essential element of the aging
process. Therefore, it is not surprising that we find none of them really satisfactory."


These tests, conducted typically in very hot and humid environments - may likely be CREATING the only situation that something like microchamber paper has a substantial benefit in. Let's be clear what accelerated tests look like; 80-90 degree CELSIUS (that's 176 to 194 degrees Fahrenheit!!) and humidity up to 65%. Researchers that use accelerated aging tests stress the importance of humidity, because at lower humidity levels like 25% or so paper often doesn't show that much aging at high temps.

Just to put in perspective, Death Valley is the hottest place on earth with a highest recorded temperature of 136 degrees Fahrenheit. And little humidity. So if you are planning on storing your comics someplace hotter still and up the humidity to over 50%, there is no doubt microchamber paper or another buffered interleaving paper will help.

But in normal storage conditions, the benefits can be questioned. In more ideal storage conditions the benefits become more questionable still. The average comic book collectors home is a lot more ideal than you might think, especially if the collectors stores their books out of the light and doesn't display them along the walls.

I don't know about your house, but mine is heated in the winter, cooled in the summer. I have a whole house humidifier on the furnace. So not only does the temperature run 65-75 degrees year around, the humidity is kept from falling to low in the winter and too high in the summer. Like Goldilocks, most of the time my place is "just right" as far as comfort for humans. Which turns out to not be too bad a place for paper.

To be fair, researchers mostly agree that they have no substitute for artificial aging of paper in the laboratory settings - other than say waiting 30 years. And there is indeed research that suggests alkaline buffered papers interleaved in books - particularly in sealed plastic bags - helps untreated paper retains it's strength. IN ARTIFICIAL AGING TESTS. So the circle takes us back where we started

Utlimately, If CGC puts one or two sheets of microchamber paper - which I don't believe is actually the same thing as "interleaving" like the research says - I do not believe it does any harm and perhaps there is some chance it does a bit of good. The research I read talks about interleaving buffering paper and that the pages that are in contact with the buffered paper have benefited. That would mean a standard comic would need what, a over a dozen sheets?

But regarding the actual topic of this thread, I find no proof that CBCS leaving that sheet or two of microchamber paper out puts my books at any risk. At least not if I show just a tiny bit of common sense in storing my books.

Link to LOC article I drew from:
http://www.loc.gov/preservation/resourc ... dAging.pdf
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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby InvstmntComcSupplies » Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:59 am

IronMan wrote:
InvstmntComcSupplies wrote:
IronMan wrote:The only thing I'm getting for sure out of the first set of tests is if you store your comic books in an oven - or oven like conditions - microchamber paper will help. The summary stresses controlling the environment as the best and most important thing thing that can be done.


Elevated temperatures are used to simulate aging of paper. Most studies don't want to wait around for 30 years.

Controlling environment is almost always recommended in all studies since lack of environmental controls can damage the entire collection. Does this mean that with environmental controls, paper magically stops aging? Of course not, especially paper which is already acidic (every newsprint comic ever made). However, none of us control the environment in our homes to the extent recommended for long term paper storage.


Thought I'd stay out of this for a while. Lots of interesting comments. Now I'm back. :flowery:

Accelerated aging of paper is itself a controversial subject, with a great deal of uncertainties and no small number of highly educated expert critics. The question is essentially "do accelerated tests at all indicate the permanence of paper?" A lot of experts say no, it does not.

"....In a more recent work, Bansa expresses further frustration with accelerated aging
techniques (Bansa, 1992). With the aid of extensive accelerated aging data, he has
attempted vainly to find reproducible degradation patterns with different papers. He is
convinced that accelerated aging experiments can lead to conclusions that may not only
be doubtful, but can even be “deceitful.” He points to several findings from his data that
perplex him: These include the lack of any predictability in the observed decay patterns
(some are curved upwards, others downwards, while some remain flat), the unexplained
stability of a paper sample with a pH of about 5, and also the stability exhibited by
alkaline groundwood papers."


another quote:
"...accelerated aging methods which facilitate the volatilization
of degradation products by exposing single sheets to a constant current of air and
moisture may be missing an important element of the manner in which paper ages within
a mass of paper that is bound into a book, or housed in a closed container. When we open
an old book, we would be surprised if it did not have a characteristic smell. Yet the
accelerated aging methods we have practiced thus far never develop a noticeable odor.
Our accelerated aging methods have been missing an essential element of the aging
process. Therefore, it is not surprising that we find none of them really satisfactory."


:sigh:
There is often some controversy with any modeling technique. Professional courtesy entails noting differing professional opinions in studies such as this, however it appears you are taking this as an invalidation of the entire study. Clearly the LOC and conservators around the world disagree with this stance, since the conclusions of the study have been incorporated into their recommendations. Here is a more relevant quote:

"Regardless of rampant skepticism in accelerated aging techniques, there is no substitute for the process in the research laboratory. Scientists engaged in research on the permanence of paper have no choice but to employ one or more of the artificial aging techniques presently available"

IronMan wrote:These tests, conducted typically in very hot and humid environments - may likely be CREATING the only situation that something like microchamber paper has a substantial benefit in.
This is an assumption that is not only in direct contradiction to the study findings but also contradicts current recommendations by conservators that recommend deacidifying acidic papers prior to placing in mylar, or when deacidfying is impractical, to place an alkaline reserve in with acidic papers.

IronMan wrote:Utlimately, If CGC puts one or two sheets of microchamber paper - which I don't believe is actually the same thing as "interleaving" like the research says - I do not believe it does any harm and perhaps there is some chance it does a bit of good.
There is no "perhaps" or "some chance" about it. The study conclusively shows that alkaline reserves improve the life of paper stored in mylar and without alkaline reserves, acidic paper degrades faster in mylar than not in mylar.

As far as interleaving is concerned, I do not recall any research study that addresses interleaving or even mentions it at all.

IronMan wrote:But regarding the actual topic of this thread, I find no proof that CBCS leaving that sheet or two of microchamber paper out puts my books at any risk. At least not if I show just a tiny bit of common sense in storing my books.
Again this statement completely contradicts the study you reference and flies in the face of accepted conservation practices. This is comprehensively addressed in pages 6-8 under the title "Aging of Paper Sealed within Polyester Film"

By the way this IS the study that I, as well as several others, have referenced when covering the subjects of open vs closed top Mylars, coated SBS boards vs Fullbacks, etc. One thing, I don't think I have ever seen the complete paper, as the previous link was to a summary which after seeing your link I was able to find http://www.loc.gov/preservation/resources/rt/age/age_5.html . I do appreciate you finding the paper and posting it, although I find it odd that you either disregard or contradict the findings therein.

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby InvstmntComcSupplies » Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:31 am

Stu_Pidman wrote:
InvstmntComcSupplies wrote:
Prophet_DNA wrote:
A link to this study would be great if you have one? I wasn't aware that the Library of Congress did research to show gases are actually trapped inside these slabs while they aged. I would assume that because they are not air tight this was impossiable but I could be wrong...


You are thinking of this the wrong way. You are thinking of gases that evaporate into the atmosphere like Helium or Hydrogen. Byproducts of paper deterioration are strongly attracted to paper. It is why the reaction is auto catalytic. It feeds on itself. Also not all of the chemistry is gaseous in nature.

The LOC did studies on Mylar, which is used to store a vast amount of their collection. It was pretty much a given that acidic papers encapsulated in mylar would deteriorate more rapidly than not, after the debacle of cellulose acetate lamination.


"the debacle of cellulose acetate lamination." Please tell me you're talking about the Q Collection :lol:

http://q-comics.com/


one eccentric does not a "debacle" make.
Although, I did ask the Q guy several years ago, when he popped up on the ebay chat boards, if he was deacidifying the books and got no response. Also. from everything I read at the time, and he went in to great detail about what he was doing :oops: , he never once mentioned de-acidifying. So I would expect the books to be toast within a few decades.

Cellulose acetate (CA) differed from what he was doing, solely in that he was using Mylar for the laminate, rather than CA. CA was used and recommended for protecting documents extensively from the 30's through the 70's. Documents were supposed to be deacidified first, however deacidfying was quite time consuming and controls for it were not well developed, so it was often ignored or done improperly. The plastic ends up trapping the acids in the book as well as byproducts of deterioration, thus papers deteriorate faster, becoming yellow, brown and brittle.

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby InvstmntComcSupplies » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:11 pm

Also, Hi Stu!
Good to hear your opinions without having to constantly decipher new screen names.

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby IronMan » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:33 pm

Investment - what do you think "interleaving" means?

Dictionary: insert pages, typically blank ones, between the pages of (a book).
"books of maps interleaved with tracing paper"

I propose that one or two sheets of paper in a 32 page document is not interleaving. The study says "...the stabilization of paper gained through mere contact with alkaline paper within the PET envelope" In a typical CGC slabbed book, only four pages of a comic book come in contact with the microchamber paper.

Perhaps you are ignoring the problems that exist with authenticating that this stuff - used the way it is currently used - does much good for storage of comic books in NORMAL storage conditions. Nothing in the study at all contradicts that CBCS leaving a sheet or two of this out endangers the books. I'm not storing my books in 175 degree temps at 65% humidity. Did you catch the part where one researcher said the results of accelerated aging tests were "deceitful"?

There are only a couple of things I've read that are rock solid, everyone agrees on. Proper storage and deacidification of the paper itself. The latter is impractical for comic books at this point in time. The former is typically being done to the degree it is practical. What would really be good for the comic books in question and the hobby itself is the hobby accepting deacidification and not thinking of such books as restored.

You may have a great hammer. IMO Proof that this problem is a nail is lacking.
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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby DrWatson » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:41 pm

Plus, for micro chamber paper to be as beneficial as one is being led to believe, wouldn't it have to be inserted in between each page? I mean, it's great if you are the front/back cover and the first wrap. If you're the centerfold, then I guess you're just going to be screwed by the impending acidic cloud off gasses.

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby InvstmntComcSupplies » Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:27 pm

IronMan wrote:Investment - what do you think "interleaving" means?

Dictionary: insert pages, typically blank ones, between the pages of (a book).
"books of maps interleaved with tracing paper"

I propose that one or two sheets of paper in a 32 page document is not interleaving. The study says "...the stabilization of paper gained through mere contact with alkaline paper within the PET envelope" In a typical CGC slabbed book, only four pages of a comic book come in contact with the microchamber paper.


I know exactly what interleaving means. I pointed out that studies don't address interleaving.

IronMan wrote:Perhaps you are ignoring the problems that exist with authenticating that this stuff - used the way it is currently used - does much good for storage of comic books in NORMAL storage conditions.
This study and the one I linked earlier, do exactly that.

IronMan wrote:Nothing in the study at all contradicts that CBCS leaving a sheet or two of this out endangers the books.

!!!!!!!The study specifically shows that enclosing newsprint (acidic paper) in mylar without an alkaline reserve, hastens the aging process of the newsprint.

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby IronMan » Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:15 pm

InvstmntComcSupplies wrote:
IronMan wrote:Investment - what do you think "interleaving" means?

Dictionary: insert pages, typically blank ones, between the pages of (a book).
"books of maps interleaved with tracing paper"

I propose that one or two sheets of paper in a 32 page document is not interleaving. The study says "...the stabilization of paper gained through mere contact with alkaline paper within the PET envelope" In a typical CGC slabbed book, only four pages of a comic book come in contact with the microchamber paper.


I know exactly what interleaving means. I pointed out that studies don't address interleaving.

IronMan wrote:Perhaps you are ignoring the problems that exist with authenticating that this stuff - used the way it is currently used - does much good for storage of comic books in NORMAL storage conditions.
This study and the one I linked earlier, do exactly that.

IronMan wrote:Nothing in the study at all contradicts that CBCS leaving a sheet or two of this out endangers the books.

!!!!!!!The study specifically shows that enclosing newsprint (acidic paper) in mylar without an alkaline reserve, hastens the aging process of the newsprint.
IN ARTIFICIAL AGING TESTS. The test parameters were 194 degrees and 50% relative humidity. They cannot say that the results would be the same stored at 65-75 degrees and 40-50% humidity. The testing is artificial. So perhaps are the results. According to some experts in the field.

Regardless, the test you quote and the chart in figure 2 demonstrates that only the paper deacidified with aqueous magnesium bicarbonate actually does "well" in the test. The rest simply do differing shades of poor.

I've never used MCP in my raw collection and the information doesn't convince me I should. Nor does it convince me it's a mistake for CBCS to skip using it. If I ever do anything outside of proper storage, it will be deacidification.
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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby InvstmntComcSupplies » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:08 pm

IronMan wrote:
InvstmntComcSupplies wrote:
IronMan wrote:Investment - what do you think "interleaving" means?

Dictionary: insert pages, typically blank ones, between the pages of (a book).
"books of maps interleaved with tracing paper"

I propose that one or two sheets of paper in a 32 page document is not interleaving. The study says "...the stabilization of paper gained through mere contact with alkaline paper within the PET envelope" In a typical CGC slabbed book, only four pages of a comic book come in contact with the microchamber paper.


I know exactly what interleaving means. I pointed out that studies don't address interleaving.

IronMan wrote:Perhaps you are ignoring the problems that exist with authenticating that this stuff - used the way it is currently used - does much good for storage of comic books in NORMAL storage conditions.
This study and the one I linked earlier, do exactly that.

IronMan wrote:Nothing in the study at all contradicts that CBCS leaving a sheet or two of this out endangers the books.

!!!!!!!The study specifically shows that enclosing newsprint (acidic paper) in mylar without an alkaline reserve, hastens the aging process of the newsprint.
IN ARTIFICIAL AGING TESTS.


Which as earlier stated are the STANDARD.
Quote: there is no substitute for the process in the research laboratory.

IronMan wrote:Regardless, the test you quote and the chart in figure 2 demonstrates that only the paper deacidified with aqueous magnesium bicarbonate actually does "well" in the test. The rest simply do differing shades of poor.


No. This is blatant misrepresentation on your part.

The chart specifically shows exactly what I have continually stated in this thread and for the last several years, including:

1. Newsprint comics alone in Mylar age faster than newsprint NOT in Mylar.

This result is shown in graphical form in Figure 2 with the "Sealed" curve as opposed to the "Control" curve (this is the part which specifically shows why it is a bad idea for CBCS to enclose books in slabs alone). It is also stated in this sentence at the very beginning of the summary: "Paper encapsulated without deacidification became brittle by the tenth day of aging, as compared with the control which took twice as long to lose most of its strength." Where the control "sheets which were not treated in any way or encapsulated" .

Thus your comic books are chemically better off NOT in a slab, than in a slab alone.

2. It matters not whether the Mylar is sealed or open

This result is shown in graphical form in Figure 2 with "Sealed" curve being identical to the "Half-Open" curve. It is also stated in this sentence at the very beginning of the summary: "Even half-sealed paper aged just as rapidly as paper sealed completely."

3. Newsprint comics with microchamber paper in Mylar bags will perform significantly better than without microchamber paper

This result is shown in graphical form in Figure 2 with "Sealed" curve as opposed to "Permalife" curve. It is also stated in this sentence: "An alkaline buffer incorporated in paper, or even in contact with an alkaline paper stabilizes acidic paper by neutralizing the acidic degradation products."


These are the FUNDAMENTAL results of the study. So your claims of
IronMan wrote:Nothing in the study at all contradicts that CBCS leaving a sheet or two of this out endangers the books.
are completely erroneous.

Additionally, maybe you would like to address why conservators all recommend deacidifying any paper stored in Mylar or when deacidfying is impractical, to place an alkaline reserve in with acidic papers stored in Mylar? It is the results of this study which confirmed this SOP in archives throughout the world. I say confirmed, because they all knew it anyway after 40 years of cellulose acetate lamination. It is not like they just stumbled upon the idea for an alkaline reserve during the study.

edit: to swap around a copy/paste issue

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby Superior Spider-Man » Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:00 am

:welcome:

outatime43 wrote:Mylar keeps out the atmospheric accelerators extremely well and will not break down when exposed to the acidic monomers of Lignin. However, micro-chamber paper WILL absorb the monomers directly off of the front and back pages as they are released (the pages most likely to brown first). MYLAR DOES NOT STOP THIS PROCESS BY ITSELF. So, in my opinion as someone with a chemistry M.S., the micro-chamber paper is an important element in your overall protection scheme. CBCS is incorrect, however, they are right that conditions and their encapsulation process will halt most of the degradation potential.

3. Micro-chamber paper (Reduces the natural degradation of your paper from the breakdown of Lignin and exposure to its acidic monomers)


In your opinion/experience, what effect (if any) does the micro-chamber paper have on the pages it is in contact with after it has absorbed it's full capacity and left intact for too long?
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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby bo130 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:36 pm

The pages inside an older (lignin containing) comic book are WAAAAY more acidic and polluting than a piece of MC paper - even one that has been sitting inside of a comic book for years.

There is so much dis-information out there about MC paper. MC paper was meant to protect paper and other ephemera in heavily polluted storage areas, (meaning severe/less than idea conditions).

I would never ever store a comic book inside any mylar bag or slabbed enclosure and consider it a final, archival solution for long-term storage without MC paper. (I would extend that to having the comic professionally chemically de-acidified with a calcium carbonate buffer included) Lignin containing paper is auto catalytic, meaning it will literally pollute itself and accelerate its own aging. (think of it like the pages next to each other breathing something nasty onto each other) Lignin containing paper begins to age and yellow, particularly when it comes in contact with light, heat, moisture, or pollutants. Mylar is a great gas barrier, meaning that while pollutants and other nasties from the outside can't get in, they cannot get out if there are within the mylar sleeve. If the lignin pages within the mylar enclosure are actively off-gassing, the mylar is actually aiding the autocatalytic reaction. The solution for this is an alkaline reserve and the zeolites within the MC paper. (or any other product that has both an alkaline reserve and zeolites)

With this said, if the comic book is kept in a dark room/container, and the container itself is non acidic, and the comic book is held flat (to allow low or no oxygen exchange) and the temperature is low with very low humidity, aaand if you don't have the comic held within a cheap plastic bag, MC paper and all of the rest of the things that we do become far, far less important. There are examples of very old comic books like the mile high collection that had absolutely nothing helping them to be preserved other than the really really ideal environment that they existed in. The thing is, we don't always have the most ideal environment.

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby Stu_Pidman » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:32 pm

bo130 wrote:I would never ever store a comic book inside any mylar bag or slabbed enclosure and consider it a final, archival solution for long-term storage without MC paper.


CBCS does. What's your opinion on them? Remember Borock has been president of both companies.

(I would extend that to having the comic professionally chemically de-acidified with a calcium carbonate buffer included)


But then your collection would be Restored and would be worth a lot less than you paid for the books and the procedures in the first place.

Lignin containing paper is auto catalytic, meaning it will literally pollute itself and accelerate its own aging. (think of it like the pages next to each other breathing something nasty onto each other) Lignin containing paper begins to age and yellow, particularly when it comes in contact with light, heat, moisture, or pollutants. Mylar is a great gas barrier, meaning that while pollutants and other nasties from the outside can't get in, they cannot get out if there are within the mylar sleeve. If the lignin pages within the mylar enclosure are actively off-gassing, the mylar is actually aiding the autocatalytic reaction.


I don't believe this to be correct. Do you have any supporting data? (and I am assuming you are speaking of the mylars with a flap and not the open top ones).

With this said, if the comic book is kept in a dark room/container, and the container itself is non acidic, and the comic book is held flat (to allow low or no oxygen exchange) and the temperature is low with very low humidity, aaand if you don't have the comic held within a cheap plastic bag, MC paper and all of the rest of the things that we do become far, far less important. There are examples of very old comic books like the mile high collection that had absolutely nothing helping them to be preserved other than the really really ideal environment that they existed in. The thing is, we don't always have the most ideal environment.
[/quote]

I'm glad you mentioned this, as the hobby has only been using MC paper since 2000. Bottom line is that you can keep your comics pristine without any MC at all. None. People just fell for CGC's bullshit attempt at repeat business with the "every 7 year" thing. I can't believe people fell for that. MC always seemed like a scam to me, but it doesnt damage the book, so waste your money as you see fit.
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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby bo130 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:07 pm

Stu_Pidman wrote:CBCS does. What's your opinion on them? Remember Borock has been president of both companies.


I have respect for both companies, but I would not consider them a conservation service per se. They are in the business of grading comics.

But then your collection would be Restored and would be worth a lot less than you paid for the books and the procedures in the first place.


Of course. I was speaking strictly from a conservation perspective, not from a resale perspective.

I don't believe this to be correct. Do you have any supporting data? (and I am assuming you are speaking of the mylars with a flap and not the open top ones).


From the Library of Congress website: (bold is mine)

https://www.loc.gov/preservation/care/d ... chure.html

"In the presence of moisture, acids from the environment (e.g., air pollution, poor-quality enclosures), or from within the paper (e.g., from the raw materials, manufacturing process, deterioration products), repeatedly cut the glucose chains into shorter lengths. This acid hydrolysis reaction produces more acids, feeding further, continued degradation. "

However, there is a ton of information on the web that goes into what happens when lignin in paper begins to degrade.

In regard to the mylar enclosures, I am speaking strictly about mylar as a substance. It's properties as being a great gas barrier are well established. That of course means that it will resist gasses penetrating it either way. It is great in the sense that if you have an environment that is in the presence of airborne nasties, it will protect the book from the outside, but it will not let anything inside get out. If the pages are yellow or yellowing, it can potentially make things worse, depending of course on how far along the lignin degradation is.

I'm glad you mentioned this, as the hobby has only been using MC paper since 2000. Bottom line is that you can keep your comics pristine without any MC at all. None. People just fell for CGC's bullshit attempt at repeat business with the "every 7 year" thing. I can't believe people fell for that. MC always seemed like a scam to me, but it doesnt damage the book, so waste your money as you see fit.


I agree that the type of materials the the comic book industry releases and pushes has dubious or little value IF one has the perfect environment for comic books. Ideal and steady temperature & humidity, no exposure to light, and little exposure to oxygen and other chemicals, and no contact with cheap carboard box containers or other containers that will accelerate page degradation. Plus, none of those cheapie comic bags, which have to be the worst product pushed by the comic book industry only matched by cheap cardboard comic book boxes. (I would also add that the books themselves aren't suffering from severe lignin deterioration. After a certain point, there is little that one can do.) I didn't have a problem with MC paper after reading what it actually did, and what it was made from, and from comparing what it did with information from authorities in paper conservation, such as the LOC. Plus, the MC paper is cheap in comparison to things like unbuffered comic book backing boards and other junk who's hidden purpose is to kill the comic book.

In regard to MC paper and the 7 year thing, there is absolutely no proof that MC paper's lifespan ends at 7 years. There are even rumors I have read that suggest that the MC paper will suddenly start to release all of the pollutants that it has gathered at this point in time. No proof of this either. A while back I remember reading someone who did a PH test on the MC paper that he had inside a comic book for years. The results he shared said the MC paper was slightly on the acidic side. While this was interesting and noteworthy, what would be just as interesting in that scenario is to see what the PH was of the comic book pages themselves. I can guarantee they were significantly worse than the MC paper.

CGC (and CBCS) is, again, not a paper conservation business or authority. They provide a comic book grading service (and resto check) and zip the book back to you in a plastic slab. But, some still seem to look upon them as an authority of sorts on comic book conservation (and MC paper lifespan). They aren't. If people believe that their slabbed books are in an ideal state of long term preservation, after spending $20 or so from these services (and addressing nothing else regarding their storage or care) they are mistaken.

This is worth reading:

http://www.loc.gov/preservation/care/comics.html

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby Stu_Pidman » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:59 am

"CGC (and CBCS) is, again, not a paper conservation business or authority. They provide a comic book grading service (and resto check) and zip the book back to you in a plastic slab.."


From the CBCS website:
"The books are then sealed into CBCS’s archival safe inner holder."

If you're not busy, I'd love to see you go to their forum and prove that they are lying about their cases being archival safe. :P I bet a guy named DocBrown over there would join in on the discussion.

But, some still seem to look upon them as an authority of sorts on comic book conservation (and MC paper lifespan). They aren't.


Alright, I'll bite Fruit Stripe: are you an authority on comic/paper conservation? Why should I take the word of an anonymous Noob over someone like Borock who has been doing this for 18 years? Don't get me wrong, I think Borock is a complete asshole. I would love to see you make him look stupid in this regard, but at this time he has more credentials than you. Please tell me you're Tracy Heft! :lol:
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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby Stu_Pidman » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:19 am

Oh, and have you seen the Q Collection? How's that for conservation! :lol: Biggest idiot in the hobby. This collection is so when the global EMP hits, aliens 10,000 years in the future can read comic books.

http://q-comics.com

And don't believe his LOC hype, he's already been rejected by them. The reason for the rejection? Because he laminated them!
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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby MR-SigS » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:32 am

So I can send them my AF15 for their magic, put it in a vault or something and add a directive in my will for my descendant 470 or so generations from now to verify this. Hm, I'll have to consider this.

Oh,and it's Tracey Heft, not Tracy Heft :lol:

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby bo130 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:02 pm

Stu_Pidman wrote:From the CBCS website:
"The books are then sealed into CBCS’s archival safe inner holder."

If you're not busy, I'd love to see you go to their forum and prove that they are lying about their cases being archival safe. :P I bet a guy named DocBrown over there would join in on the discussion.


I never said that they don't sell or provide anything that is archival safe. I said that I don't consider them an authority on paper/comic book conservation. They're a grading service.

Alright, I'll bite Fruit Stripe: are you an authority on comic/paper conservation? Why should I take the word of an anonymous Noob over someone like Borock who has been doing this for 18 years? Don't get me wrong, I think Borock is a complete asshole. I would love to see you make him look stupid in this regard, but at this time he has more credentials than you. Please tell me you're Tracy Heft! :lol:


You lost me with the Fruit Stripe comment.

I'm going to try to put this as simple as I can. I thought you were actually interested in perhaps learning something, or gaining a new perspective. I wasn't telling you to believe me, because when it gets down to it, you don't know me from anyone else. You asked me to provide you information from what I consider to be a reputable source (Library of Congress) regarding what can happen to comic book paper, and I did that. But, as I said, you don't have to believe me. However, based on the Fruit Stripe fuckitude and nonsense about some other person opinion (who I don't know and care) I don't think you were interested in having an actual discussion, or learning anything new. The only mistake I made here was wasting my time.

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby Stu_Pidman » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:01 am

bo130 wrote:
Stu_Pidman wrote:From the CBCS website:
"The books are then sealed into CBCS’s archival safe inner holder."

If you're not busy, I'd love to see you go to their forum and prove that they are lying about their cases being archival safe. :P I bet a guy named DocBrown over there would join in on the discussion.


I never said that they don't sell or provide anything that is archival safe. I said that I don't consider them an authority on paper/comic book conservation. They're a grading service.


I disagree. The archival properties of slabbed books has been a major cocern of collectors for 18 years. Both companies are quite aware of this and part of their reputation is dependent upon the archival quality of their slabs. I consider both companies as authorities as much as anyone else, barring the LOC. Who in the comic industry do you consider to be an authority on comic book preservation if a company that has slabbed 3 million comics isn't?

]Alright, I'll bite Fruit Stripe: are you an authority on comic/paper conservation? Why should I take the word of an anonymous Noob over someone like Borock who has been doing this for 18 years? Don't get me wrong, I think Borock is a complete asshole. I would love to see you make him look stupid in this regard, but at this time he has more credentials than you. Please tell me you're Tracy Heft! :lol:


You lost me with the Fruit Stripe comment.


I guess you weren't born in the 60s then :lol: I can see you just jumped to conclusions instead of using Google so I'll explain it to you. Fruit Stripe is/was a type of chewing gum. Back in the day they had a commercial where the FS Zebra would try to tempt you to try the sweet smelling gum until you gave in to the temptation and said "I'll bite Fruit Stripe." Basically it's a throw-away line meaning "ok I'll take your bait." And I sure did!

I'm going to try to put this as simple as I can. I thought you were actually interested in perhaps learning something, or gaining a new perspective. I wasn't telling you to believe me, because when it gets down to it, you don't know me from anyone else. You asked me to provide you information from what I consider to be a reputable source (Library of Congress) regarding what can happen to comic book paper, and I did that. But, as I said, you don't have to believe me. However, based on the Fruit Stripe fuckitude and nonsense about some other person opinion (who I don't know and care) I don't think you were interested in having an actual discussion, or learning anything new. The only mistake I made here was wasting my time.


Well, if you don't know who Tracey Heft is then I don't think there's anything new that you, an anonymous Noob who won't post any credentials, can teach me anyway. Posting the same LOC link that's already been posted for 18 years certainly doesnt make you an authority. Why don't you try the CBCS or CGC board? That would help you gauge reaction to the topic better, and would put my comments into proper perspective.
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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby Stu_Pidman » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:24 am

"Honesty is my only excuse, try to rob me of it but it's no use." Metallica :rockout:

Why are some comic collectors so proud to have fake OCD? Is it cool to pretend to be mentally ill?

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby Prophet_DNA » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:14 am

Stu_Pidman wrote:Is this you on the CGC board? :P :thumbsup2:

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/ ... ivist-not/


You mean being spooncomic? I am going to say no because whoever spoon is they have huge grammatical errors compared to this guys writing...
- Jason

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby Plasmite » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:18 am

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