CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

General discussion about CBCS Grading.
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Re: CBCS talk

Postby avengers55 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:06 am

IronMan wrote:Off gassing is a result of newspaper slowly decaying. The decay being a natural result of newsprint being made from wood pulp. Since the lignin in wood pulp is not chemically removed from newprint like it is from better, more archival paper products, newsprint naturally degrades - especially if exposed to heat/air/light.

It has always been the subject of some controversy as to whether or not microchamber paper offers any real archival benefit. When all is said and done, proper storage of your books (temperature and humidity controlled) is more important than just about anything else the average person can do.


I think this is pretty accurate. You should also keep your books out of light as much as possible. microchamber paper does have benefits though especially if there are trapped gasses or if there is any accelerated decay possible. Also with modern books that have substantially more chemically treated paper the benefits may be enhanced.



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Re: CBCS talk

Postby Stu_Pidman » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:47 am

avengers55 wrote:
IronMan wrote:Off gassing is a result of newspaper slowly decaying. The decay being a natural result of newsprint being made from wood pulp. Since the lignin in wood pulp is not chemically removed from newprint like it is from better, more archival paper products, newsprint naturally degrades - especially if exposed to heat/air/light.

It has always been the subject of some controversy as to whether or not microchamber paper offers any real archival benefit. When all is said and done, proper storage of your books (temperature and humidity controlled) is more important than just about anything else the average person can do.


I think this is pretty accurate. You should also keep your books out of light as much as possible. microchamber paper does have benefits though especially if there are trapped gasses or if there is any accelerated decay possible.


Good thing the CGC inner well and slab don't trap gasses but instead allow them to dissipate. I wonder if the other slabbing companies can claim the same. For those of you who have a CBCS slab already, is it like CGC's where it's not sealed on the sides? Or if it is completely sealed, is there some kind of vent slot/slit that allows gasses to pass?
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Re: CBCS talk

Postby Pepto-Bismol » Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:33 am

Stu_Pidman wrote: is there some kind of vent slot/slit that allows gasses to pass?


:pushfart:

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby Prophet_DNA » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:39 pm

Ze-man wrote:Hey, as I was getting into a WDC&S #1 that was slabbed. After taking off the cover for tape removal I stuck the micro papers between the outer and second wrap of the interior, as I was looking at the interior today to see how much leaf casting it needed , I noticed the MCP....and remembered this discussion of whether or not MCP was necessary, or even effective.

Did it just counteract off gassing by being buffered,and become less effective over time, or actually absorb acids like a filter.

So I took out my PH Pen, hit the paper that was inside the WDC&S 1 a few times and to my surprise it did not stay blue(which means acidic). I went upstairs, grabbed some fresh sheets of MCP, hit it with the pH pen. The lines stayed Blue.

So the MCP that was sitting inside a 70+ year old comic was turning acidic, absorbing off gassing from the interior. Which made me wonder how acidic would it become over the years, and what effect this would have if any on the lifespan of already C/OW newsprint if not swapped out.

Anyhow, take a look, and try it yourself.

My cameras battery literally gave out in the middle...hence the two videos.

http://s55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/ ... 3.mp4.html

http://s55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/ ... 7.mp4.html


I thought this was a pretty intresting post about MCP...
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Re: CBCS talk

Postby InvstmntComcSupplies » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:44 am

DiceX wrote:CBCS will not be using microchamber paper as the material used for our inner sleeves is in the Mylar family. Being a Mylar product, they will not off-gas which eliminates the need for microchamber paper.
Your books will be well preserved for decades as long as they are stored in optimal conditions.


As has been pointed out, Mylar is inert and doesn't offgas. It is the paper stored within that offgases. Conservation professionals recommend an alkaline reserve to be included with any acidic paper (including all newsprint comics) stored in Mylar. Without an alkaline reserve, the deterioration of the newsprint, is more rapid than if the newsprint were not stored in Mylar.

From worst to best:
Newsprint in Mylar
Newsprint alone
Newsprint + alkaline reserve in Mylar

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Re: CBCS talk

Postby InvstmntComcSupplies » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:50 am

IronMan wrote:Off gassing is a result of newspaper slowly decaying. The decay being a natural result of newsprint being made from wood pulp.
True

IronMan wrote:It has always been the subject of some controversy as to whether or not microchamber paper offers any real archival benefit.
False, as an alkaline reserve, microchamber paper has proven archival benefits. There is no controversy about this with any conservation professional. Additionally there are benefits from the zeolites which act a molecular sieve to remove other pollutants unaffected by the alkaline buffering.

IronMan wrote:When all is said and done, proper storage of your books (temperature and humidity controlled) is more important than just about anything else the average person can do.
+ Darkness = true

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Re: CBCS talk

Postby InvstmntComcSupplies » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:04 pm

DiceX wrote:
Youmechoose wrote: Another thing that made me ask was why change the stance on mcp after leaving cgc.


Because the inner holders are not made of the same material. You're comparing apples to oranges.


No. The inner wells of both companies effectively create a microclimate that ends up being primarily generated by offgassing of the book itself, with a small amount contributed by the outside atmosphere, dependent upon the permeability of the plastic involved.

Mylar is an excellent gas barrier, effectively trapping the acidic offgasing of the book within a Mylar enclosure and accelerating the decay process.

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby Prophet_DNA » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:10 pm

If none of these slabs are air tight how is the gas being trapped?
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Re: CBCS talk

Postby IronMan » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:11 pm

InvstmntComcSupplies wrote:
IronMan wrote:Of

IronMan wrote:It has always been the subject of some controversy as to whether or not microchamber paper offers any real archival benefit.

False, as an alkaline reserve, microchamber paper has proven archival benefits. There is no controversy about this with any conservation professional. Additionally there are benefits from the zeolites which act a molecular sieve to remove other pollutants unaffected by the alkaline buffering.


How about a link or two of testing labs, professional publications or some such - that don't sell the stuff - establishing actual tested benefits? Even the conservation professionals you speak of.

The library of Congress doesn't mention it. The few scholarly type places that I've seen mention it primarily discuss it as something to absorb odors. And in further checking around I find one actual lab test where it is suggested that microchamber paper used in a sealed environment might not be all that effective:

A quote of the summary of results:
Microchamber board should function best as a barrier between the object to be protected and the volatile molecule(s) to be trapped. This situation is more likely to occur in an open storage area where air quality is poor or in a space where air circulates and objects that off gas....

Microchamber paper as used in storage of comic books is not in an open storage area where air quality is poor. Nor does air circulate inside a sealed bag.

http://cool.conservation-us.org/coolaic ... p23-14.pdf
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Re: CBCS talk

Postby DrWatson » Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:22 pm

IronMan wrote:How about a link or two of testing labs, professional publications or some such - that don't sell the stuff - establishing actual tested benefits? Even the conservation professionals you speak of.

Yeah, that's always been the same problem I have. It's akin to a soybean farmer trying to convince me of the benefits of tofu.

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Re: CBCS talk

Postby InvstmntComcSupplies » Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:28 pm

IronMan wrote:
InvstmntComcSupplies wrote:
IronMan wrote:Of

IronMan wrote:It has always been the subject of some controversy as to whether or not microchamber paper offers any real archival benefit.

False, as an alkaline reserve, microchamber paper has proven archival benefits. There is no controversy about this with any conservation professional. Additionally there are benefits from the zeolites which act a molecular sieve to remove other pollutants unaffected by the alkaline buffering.


How about a link or two of testing labs, professional publications or some such - that don't sell the stuff - establishing actual tested benefits? Even the conservation professionals you speak of.

The library of Congress doesn't mention it.


The Library of Congress did the Mylar study which showed the need of an alkaline reserve in mylar.

IronMan wrote:The few scholarly type places that I've seen mention it primarily discuss it as something to absorb odors. And in further checking around I find one actual lab test where it is suggested that microchamber paper used in a sealed environment might not be all that effective:

A quote of the summary of results:
Microchamber board should function best as a barrier between the object to be protected and the volatile molecule(s) to be trapped. This situation is more likely to occur in an open storage area where air quality is poor or in a space where air circulates and objects that off gas....

Microchamber paper as used in storage of comic books is not in an open storage area where air quality is poor. Nor does air circulate inside a sealed bag.

http://cool.conservation-us.org/coolaic ... p23-14.pdf


I would like to see the entire study. I think you are misinterpreting the results. The point being that you want the microchamber as close to the item you are protecting as possible. The further away it is, the worse the performance. I don't think it gets any closer than between the pages.

From the same article:
Other results were suggestive of the possibility that the
Microchamber board could provide a protective effect for
newsprint over a much longer time period than that of the
experiment. The newsprint samples kept in the dark in the
presence of cellulose acetate, cellulose nitrate, or chipboard
were beginning to show a very slight trend of darkening in
the regular mat board passepartout, as compared to the
Microchamber board passepartout. Monitoring would
need to be continued for a much longer time period to
confirm that these differences were due to the different
boards used.

From the same website http://cool.conservation-us.org/waac/wn/wn18/wn18-1/wn18-106.html and this on microclimates from cool conservation http://www.cool.conservation-us.org/byauth/peters/peters1.html

and finally this
Library of Congress wrote: "At the moderate concentrations examined (2‐20 ppm acetic acid), the zeolite‐loaded rag boards adsorbed acetic acid vapor faster than the plain or buffered boards with the same fiber furnish. Zeolites and zeolite‐loaded housing materials can be effective pollution sorbents in library and archival environments, provided that their application is made with an understanding of their limitations. This pilot study of rag board with and without calcium carbonate and zeolite sorbents has demonstrated sorption effectiveness at real‐world, low concentrations of acetic acid in an unforced physical."
Full study here http://www.loc.gov/preservation/scientists/projects/NB%20Zeolite%20Report.pdf

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby IronMan » Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:22 pm

The only thing I'm getting for sure out of the first set of tests is if you store your comic books in an oven - or oven like conditions - microchamber paper will help. The summary stresses controlling the environment as the best and most important thing thing that can be done.

In the second test, the testers themselves state the limitations of the test:

"The scope of this project was limited to 4‐ply rag mat boards with and without sorbents, and therefore cannot be extrapolated without further testing to the numerous other paper and board products incorporating ArtCare®  and MicroChamber® materials."

It's obvious even to the non-expert that 4-ply rag board made for matting pictures is going to be great deal thicker - and therefore likely much more effective - than microchamber paper used in comic books

I do however thank you sincerely for being the first person to actually offer any independent evidence at all that microchamber paper might help.
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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby InvstmntComcSupplies » Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:22 pm

IronMan wrote:The only thing I'm getting for sure out of the first set of tests is if you store your comic books in an oven - or oven like conditions - microchamber paper will help. The summary stresses controlling the environment as the best and most important thing thing that can be done.

In the second test, the testers themselves state the limitations of the test:

"The scope of this project was limited to 4‐ply rag mat boards with and without sorbents, and therefore cannot be extrapolated without further testing to the numerous other paper and board products incorporating ArtCare®  and MicroChamber® materials."

It's obvious even to the non-expert that 4-ply rag board made for matting pictures is going to be great deal thicker - and therefore likely much more effective - than microchamber paper used in comic books

I do however thank you sincerely for being the first person to actually offer any independent evidence at all that microchamber paper might help.


What are you considering the "first set of tests"?

The point of the second test is that it tested EXACTLY the same 4 ply mat boards. There had been a concern in the intial testing that since the microchamber board came from a different manufacturer than other boards studied that the boards were not consistent across the samples so: "Rag board samples containing a calcium carbonate buffer, calcium carbonate plus zeolite, or only rag fiber were obtained from one commercial supplier to provide samples directly comparable in all aspects other than the presence of the zeolite" By performing the test in this manner they conclusively proved that the microchamber boards whose only difference was the zeolite, performed better than the boards without. This is the same zeolite used in all microchamber products.

You can review all of the initial testing on the conservation resources website.

I am not sure what you expect regarding testing proprietary products. There will not be a ton of tests done by independent agencies and when they do they prefer to remain generic. Testing zeolites or the effects of alkaline reserves instead of microchamber paper. The majority of the testing is done by the manufacturer. Additionally public entities like the LOC rarely recommend proprietary products. They will recommend "polyester film" instead of mylar and an "alkaline reserve", etc.

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby InvstmntComcSupplies » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:54 am

IronMan wrote:The only thing I'm getting for sure out of the first set of tests is if you store your comic books in an oven - or oven like conditions - microchamber paper will help. The summary stresses controlling the environment as the best and most important thing thing that can be done.


Elevated temperatures are used to simulate aging of paper. Most studies don't want to wait around for 30 years.

Controlling environment is almost always recommended in all studies since lack of environmental controls can damage the entire collection. Does this mean that with environmental controls, paper magically stops aging? Of course not, especially paper which is already acidic (every newsprint comic ever made). However, none of us control the environment in our homes to the extent recommended for long term paper storage.

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby Prophet_DNA » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:34 am

Prophet_DNA wrote:If none of these slabs are air tight how is the gas being trapped?


:popcorn:
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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby InvstmntComcSupplies » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:50 am

IronMan wrote:
It's obvious even to the non-expert that 4-ply rag board made for matting pictures is going to be great deal thicker - and therefore likely much more effective - than microchamber paper used in comic books



As mentioned above the study proved that the microchamber 4 ply board with zeolites performed better than the otherwise equivalent 4 ply board to absorb acetic acid. We are not proposing putting 4 ply board between the pages of your book, but microchamber interleaving paper (with the same zeolites), to absorb the acetic acid generated within the book itself as well as all sorts of other pollutants adsorbed by the zeolite before they damage the book.

Consider how the document was abbreviated in the address bar loc.gov/preservation/scientists/projects/NB%20Zeolite%20Report.pdf

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby timern » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:02 am

Prophet_DNA wrote:
Prophet_DNA wrote:If none of these slabs are air tight how is the gas being trapped?


:popcorn:

:fart:
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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby InvstmntComcSupplies » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:12 am

Prophet_DNA wrote:
Prophet_DNA wrote:If none of these slabs are air tight how is the gas being trapped?


:popcorn:

I already typed this out once but for some reason it did not post.

It matters not, as far as deterioration is concerned. It is simply that the contaminants released by the book are being concentrated within the enclosure which is accelerating the aging process. The LOC study showed equal deterioration in the test paper whether it was stored in mylar sealed on all 4 sides or in mylar with two open sides. Again this deterioration was FASTER than the control (test paper not in mylar). Alone this result would tell us never to store paper in mylar. However, the study also added an alkaline reserve in with the test paper and found that the paper aged slower in mylar with the alkaline reserve than the control

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby DrWatson » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:14 am

Prophet_DNA wrote:
Prophet_DNA wrote:If none of these slabs are air tight how is the gas being trapped?


:popcorn:

It's not.

It's called creating a false need in order to sell a product.

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby InvstmntComcSupplies » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:28 am

DrWatson wrote:
Prophet_DNA wrote:
Prophet_DNA wrote:If none of these slabs are air tight how is the gas being trapped?


:popcorn:

It's not.

It's called creating a false need in order to sell a product.


Absolutely incorrect as proven in the Library of Congress study.

I also don't appreciate the disparaging comments.
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Re: CBCS talk

Postby InvstmntComcSupplies » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:44 am

DrWatson wrote:Is there any concrete proof microchamber paper is needed? Well, how about proof that it is not needed? That would be every book that currently has white pages that has not been stored with even a shred of microchamber paper since the day it was printed.


No, that just proves that the existing acid in the book has not yet damaged the paper by darkening.

It does not prove that microchamber would NOT slow the inevitable acid accumulation in the book and its eventual darkening. Because that is exactly what microchamber paper does and there is ample scientific evidence to prove it.

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby Prophet_DNA » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:34 pm

InvstmntComcSupplies wrote:
DrWatson wrote:
Prophet_DNA wrote:
Prophet_DNA wrote:If none of these slabs are air tight how is the gas being trapped?


:popcorn:

It's not.

It's called creating a false need in order to sell a product.


Absolutely incorrect as proven in the Library of Congress study.

I also don't appreciate the disparaging comments.


A link to this study would be great if you have one? I wasn't aware that the Library of Congress did research to show gases are actually trapped inside these slabs while they aged. I would assume that because they are not air tight this was impossiable but I could be wrong...
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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby DrWatson » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:53 pm

InvstmntComcSupplies wrote:
DrWatson wrote:
Prophet_DNA wrote:
Prophet_DNA wrote:If none of these slabs are air tight how is the gas being trapped?


:popcorn:

It's not.

It's called creating a false need in order to sell a product.


Absolutely incorrect as proven in the Library of Congress study.

I also don't appreciate the disparaging comments.

Well, we would get along a lot better if you just agreed with me.

Micro chamber paper is a modern invention for a first world (read "nonexistent") problem. With proper storage, there is absolute no need for micro-chamber paper. None.

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Re: CBCS talk

Postby DrWatson » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:54 pm

InvstmntComcSupplies wrote:
DrWatson wrote:Is there any concrete proof microchamber paper is needed? Well, how about proof that it is not needed? That would be every book that currently has white pages that has not been stored with even a shred of microchamber paper since the day it was printed.


No, that just proves that the existing acid in the book has not yet damaged the paper by darkening.

It does not prove that microchamber would NOT slow the inevitable acid accumulation in the book and its eventual darkening. Because that is exactly what microchamber paper does and there is ample scientific evidence to prove it.

Well, I guess the acids in the paper of that white paged Action #1 9.0 must really be late bloomers...

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Re: CBCS and Micro Chamber Paper

Postby InvstmntComcSupplies » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:03 pm

DrWatson wrote:
InvstmntComcSupplies wrote:
DrWatson wrote:
Prophet_DNA wrote:
Prophet_DNA wrote:If none of these slabs are air tight how is the gas being trapped?


:popcorn:

It's not.

It's called creating a false need in order to sell a product.


Absolutely incorrect as proven in the Library of Congress study.

I also don't appreciate the disparaging comments.

Well, we would get along a lot better if you just agreed with me.


Sarcasm is fine. You wouldn't be Watson without it.
Misstatements of fact are fine. I'll just correct you.
But defamatory statements are unacceptable.

DrWatson wrote:Micro chamber paper is a modern invention for a first world problem.

So is the CGC. So are bags and boards. So are yoga pants. Forgive me if I don't join the crusade.

DrWatson wrote:With proper storage, there is absolute no need for micro-chamber paper. None.

Microchamber interleaving paper serves a specific purpose. It slows the degradation of paper, regardless of how that paper is stored. I don't care where you want to be on the conservation scale, if you don't think your books need it, then, no worries. However, there are specific, proven benefits, to the use of microchamber paper in comic books.

And, for clarity, anyone putting comics in mylar without some sort of alkaline reserve is doing it wrong. So clearly, there are quite a few that "think" they have proper storage, but in reality do not.


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